Lisa G. ([info]poledradog) wrote in [info]knitting,
2007-02-07 17:39:00
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Question about copyrights

I recently made these water bottle cozies.  I did them by adapting this pattern on Knitty.

Several people have asked for my pattern.  I want to write up some instructions, but was wondering if there were any copyright issues with doing so.  I feel I've changed the pattern enough, but I'm just not sure.  Differences are:

- I wrote up my pattern to be math based, rather than number of stitch based.  I.e., figure out your gauge, figure out the size you want to make, and then plug in the numbers to figure out how many stitches to cast on, rows to knit, etc.

- My pattern is felted, but could be worked either way (just effects how you calculate your stitch gauge)

- Where the original pattern stops, mine continues the length of the bottle and is then drawn up at the bottom in a circle (no decreases or anything).

Are there any issues with my sharing this?

Also, a number of people at my kids' school have suggested that I make these up to sell at the school store.  What issues would there be with this?

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  • 48 comments

[info]sassysean

February 8 2007, 00:58:45 UTC 5 years ago

I'll be darn glad ...

... when you get an answer from the knitting Einsteins. Those are the bomb. Good job. Very nice pattern.

[info]poledradog

February 8 2007, 01:06:24 UTC 5 years ago

Re: I'll be darn glad ...

Thanks!

[info]pickleboot

February 8 2007, 00:59:10 UTC 5 years ago

that is a tough question. for the main part i would say that you used that pattern as a jumping off point and as inspiration. i would email the person who wrote it and see what she says- but it looks like a different thing, there is no fair isle, and does it hold the bottom as well?

they are really cool!

[info]poledradog

February 8 2007, 01:08:24 UTC 5 years ago

Thank you! I'm pretty pleased with them, too! :)

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I should contact the person who wrote it, or Knitty, since they published it.

And you're right, there is no fair isle (didn't think about that). It does hold the bottom.

I was thinking "inspiration", too, and since it's a free pattern, I can't see that anyone would have a problem with me giving away my version free, but still wasn't sure if there were hoops I should jump through before doing so.

And there's the still the question if I can make these and sell them.

[info]pickleboot

February 8 2007, 01:12:15 UTC 5 years ago

contact the author- she might want credit as the insiration for. there is all that legal stuff, but to be honest, had you not said anything, i never would have put that together, the pattern on knitty i mean. i applaude you for being so honest.

[info]poledradog

February 8 2007, 01:13:02 UTC 5 years ago

Well I'd rather be honest now than get in trouble over something so silly. Maybe I'm just paranoid. ;)

[info]sbee

February 8 2007, 01:42:45 UTC 5 years ago

oh, and from what I understand, there's nothing wrong with making an item featured in a copyrighted pattern and then selling that item. Copyright only extends to the pattern (i.e. on paper) itself, not something that is created by referring to it! :)

[info]crayolaab

February 8 2007, 02:21:46 UTC 5 years ago

I believe this is incorrect, but don't have time to dig up the links to support this at the moment. I will try to do so later. I wonder why you think this is okay?

[info]crayolaab

5 years ago

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[info]sbee

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[info]brockengespenst

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[info]sbee

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[info]brockengespenst

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[info]sbee

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[info]brockengespenst

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[info]a_u_n_t_i_e

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[info]sbee

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[info]kathrynt

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[info]sbee

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[info]kathrynt

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[info]sbee

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[info]kathrynt

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[info]sparkymonster

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[info]a_u_n_t_i_e

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[info]a_u_n_t_i_e

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[info]lissie930

February 8 2007, 03:01:37 UTC 5 years ago

Really?
That would be so cool!
I've read that if a pattern is copyrighted, you are not allowed to sell the items you make from that pattern:
http://www.purplekittyyarns.com/info/copyright.html
(Yes, I know that's not a legal website).

[info]sbee

5 years ago

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[info]msmcknittington

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[info]sbee

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[info]emmacrew

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[info]silver_spork

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[info]onmytiptoes

February 9 2007, 12:06:01 UTC 5 years ago

Knitty specifically prohibits using the patterns to make items for sale. It's VERY clearly outlined in the FAQ. To be clear, there are not blanket assumptions with copyright- most places will explain the dos and don't explicitly.

Here is the link to the Knitty legal info.

And here's a quote, in case I screwed up the html- it is before 0700, so I'm not at my best.

"Q. Knitty's patterns are free? Really?
A. Yes, they're free for your personal, individual use. You may print out a copy to work with. But you may not print out multiple copies, you may not reformat the pattern for commercial use, and you may not sell them or items made FROM Knitty patterns. The copyright for each pattern and article belongs to the designer or author. Any usage beyond what's mentioned here must be negotiated with the designer or author."

[info]sbee

February 8 2007, 01:11:51 UTC 5 years ago

I've studied copyright law...

My personal opinion on this is that you HAVE changed the pattern enough to avoid problems. :)

[info]poledradog

February 8 2007, 01:13:34 UTC 5 years ago

Thanks!

(And yes, I took that with the implied "this statement is not to be substituted for professional legal councel" ;)

[info]sbee

February 8 2007, 01:16:50 UTC 5 years ago

LOL perfect! :)

[info]pivyca

February 8 2007, 03:11:52 UTC 5 years ago

Copyright does not protect ideas, only expressions of the ideas. So her pattern is copyrighted but her knitting concept is not. You could express the very same knitting idea in an original way and not violate copyright. In this case, it sounds like both your idea and your expression are different, so it shouldn't even be a concern. It might be nice to acknowledge the inspiration, but it shouldn't be necessary.

(Information from "Complete copyright : an everyday guide for librarians," by Carrie Russell.)

[info]neefer_1

February 8 2007, 03:25:29 UTC 5 years ago

Different creature all together... Almost everyone is inspired by something else. First off stitch amounts have to change since you are felting and her item is not felted. You have actually made a completely different material. You also made it closed for the bottom and for a water bottle, not a coffee cup. I wouldn't worry about about, if I looked at the two products next to each other I wouldn't even think that they were related. How many times has the glove or socks been reinvented?

[info]kpup

February 8 2007, 03:51:55 UTC 5 years ago

You've created your own pattern. The knitty pattern was your inspiration, and it is up to you whether you want to credit the person who wrote the knitty pattern.

[info]darkenedminds

February 8 2007, 04:19:04 UTC 5 years ago

Neato. I think its changed enough to be green, but its always good to check. If you do publish it, please do drop a line here, I'd love to check it out.

[info]prncsscindy

February 8 2007, 04:36:20 UTC 5 years ago

According to my knitting teacher, who writes her own patterns and even invented a knitting/crochet needle, if you change ANY thing, even if you use a different yarn, then it's technically not theirs anymore.

[info]kathrynt

February 8 2007, 17:17:48 UTC 5 years ago

Your knitting teacher is wrong. See commentary above from [info]a_u_n_t_i_e, who is a bona fide copyright lawyer.

[info]sbee

February 8 2007, 18:23:38 UTC 5 years ago

arggh! Am I missing the commentary from A_u_n_t_i_e?? because I'm not seeing anything she's posted about this....?

But yeah, at any rate, I would have to agree. You have to change more than something trivial, generally speaking, to make something sufficiently "original" to acquire copyright in that item. Changing the yarn is highly unlikely to do that.

[info]haptotrope

5 years ago

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[info]prncsscindy

February 8 2007, 19:59:56 UTC 5 years ago

OK, I'm just glad no one sued me then.

[info]piccadillycirc

February 8 2007, 20:08:16 UTC 5 years ago

You've probably changed enough anyway to be fine... but since it was a free pattern, I don't think you'd run into any problems saying "I used this pattern here, and changed this and this and this", as long as you are giving that advice out for free and giving due credit where it's deserved. Don't replicate the pattern, though...link to it, then specify where you made changes.

[info]evandra

February 8 2007, 20:43:02 UTC 5 years ago

I remember hearing a rule-of-thumb that if your pattern is more than 15% different than whatever inspired you, it's yours. No citation available, sorry, but it sort of rules out the "just change the yarn" contention.

But anyway, yours is *very* different (way more than 15%!), and unique, and you should go for it! Write your own pattern from scratch - forget about the thing on knitty - and sell sell sell :)

[info]counsel

February 8 2007, 22:12:18 UTC 5 years ago

That is a myth that continues to float around the internet (and other places) and has no legal grounding, to the best of my knowledge.

[info]haptotrope

February 9 2007, 02:10:11 UTC 5 years ago

You will not be the first person, or the last person to make a cup cozy, or a raglan sweater or anything without a very specific twist. Your thing is an entrely different shape, and holds different things, and is handled very differently (felted) this to me, means its all very different... several steps beyond 'different enough'

IMHNLO (in my humble non-lawyer opinion)
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